Children raised by married parents are healthier, wealthier and more likely to be successful in school and in life than those from single-parent homes, say backers of President Bush's $300 million plan to promote marriage for people on welfare.

Poverty is about money, not marriage, advocates for the poor counter.

To cut through the political rhetoric, we wanted to hear from a different kind of expert: low-income single moms raising their children alone.

What follows are highlights of a conversation with four of those women, edited for space and clarity. Their views about men, money and marriage differed, but on this they agreed: Bush's marriage push offers little real help in their struggle to get out of poverty.

About 32,500 single parents are on welfare in Washington, the vast majority of them women.

These four are not meant to be a representative sample. What they offer are insights into the day-to-day reality of being poor and a gut check on policy proposals with very real implications for their lives.

— Jolayne Houtz, Seattle Times staff reporter

The panel Cindy Hutchings, 42, has two children ages 12 and 10. She is divorced from their father. She will graduate in June from the University of Washington with a double major in women's studies and English. She lives in Auburn. Sylvia Sabon, 39, has two girls ages 6 and 8. She is a receptionist at a Seattle mortgage company and lives in Rainier Valley. She was in a long-term relationship with the girls' father but never married. Erin Welch, 26, has an 18-month-old son. She will graduate in June from Seattle Central Community College, where she is studying education and working in the student-leadership program. Welch lives in the Central Area and has never been married. Sandra Woods I, 40, has four children ages 23, 17, 13 and 11. She had a long-term relationship with their father but never married. She left Detroit six years ago and now lives on Beacon Hill. She is studying computers and is an intern at the Welfare Rights Organizing Coalition.

Times: Did you grow up with married parents? What kind of role models did you have?

Sandra Woods I, 40, mother of four, never married: "My grandmother raised eight of us. My mother had a nervous breakdown due to the fact that she was with several men that abused her. So no, I don't see it as a joy, joy, joy atmosphere. I also don't say that it's not a possibility. But you have to make that decision on your own, and you don't need the department of social services or lovely George W. Bush to tell us what to do with our lives. Stay out of it."

Sylvia Sabon, 39, mother of two, never married: "My father married twice, once to my mom, then he married my stepmom and my brother was born. That marriage was alcohol and d.v. (domestic violence). I used to take my brother into a room and hide him so he wouldn't hear that. And I tried to not get into that situation. Then I go and have two kids by a guy who does the same thing. So my theory is to be a role model for my kids and not put them in a situation where there's d.v., like I went through."

Erin Welch, 26, mother of one, never married: "My parents were married until I was in third grade, but my dad wasn't really around. When I was in third grade, my mom said we're going to Washington. I haven't spoken with him since."

Times: Growing up, did you envision yourself being married?

Welch: "I only know about eight people who have, like, a mom and dad and kids — it's a minority. You can just look at society, and it's really obvious that marriage, the state it's in right now, is not exactly something to be coveted."

Times: Do you feel singled out as low-income women by Bush's plan?

All four at once: "Yes."

Welch: "The whole idea of family formation as being the fix-it to poverty — that right there sets up this whole unequal relationship. Their definition of family is patriarchy in the most fundamental sense of the word. They're well-aware of the fact that model is disintegrating rapidly in our country, and I just feel like that's one of their ways of tightening in the reins."

Woods: "What are they going to do, set us up? Are we going to have a getting-to-know-you-better, all the single African-American males have a meeting at McDonald's or something? (laughing) We're going to give you a year to do the dating process, then, you know, the man is doing the best performance of his life for that year. And then that year is over, and he may show his real true side. And then here we are, with the love of our lives beating the heck out of us, or abusing our children, or dismantling our independence as women, and thank you, George Bush."

Times: For $440 a month, the typical welfare grant, does the government have a right to tell you who should be in your home?

Welch: "For $1,000 a month, for $10,000 a month, they don't have that right."

Cindy Hutchings, 42, divorced mother of two: "They're overstepping the zone of privacy and the right to make that personal, private decision about who you're going to marry and share your life with. They don't know what it's like to live in low-income situations. They want to make policy that affects our lives, and they have no idea what it's like."

Times: Doesn't government have a legitimate interest if it's true that children are better off in married households?

Sabon: "My kids have one parent, and I think they're better off because now they don't witness that d.v. anymore and don't have to wake up in the middle of night and run out of the apartment to a friend's house. They have memories of their father and I fighting. The kids are better off without their father in their lives."

Times: Domestic violence — tell me about that.

Sabon: "We both used to drink. I quit but he's still drinking. We'd drink and then fight over money, then he would walk out and go to the bar while I was stuck with two kids, little babies, then he'd come back again and fight some more. Finally, I put myself into treatment, and we've been separated since. In a lot of women's situations, they're afraid to take that step because they're so dependent on that income they get, $20 or $50 or whatever."

Woods: "The circumstances have made us by ourselves, due to the fact of domestic violence or drug abuse or imprisonment or abandonment. I'm not saying all men are bad men. I'm saying they need to have plans set up where the man can be self-sufficient, that you can uplift that man. Have you helped him with his drug addiction? Have you helped him get employment and training? Have you helped him find a secure (job) where he'll get benefits? How is he going to help me without those things?"

Hutchings: "I don't want to be with a man that I don't feel safe with. If you're maybe under the threat of not being able to pay your rent because (the Department of Social and Health Services, or DSHS) is going to sanction you and cut you off if you don't get married, you might rush into a decision that could be worse for you and your kids. Knowing the way DSHS works, caseworkers are going to interpret it in a way that is coercive."

Times: What do your kids say? Do they ever ask where's daddy or why aren't you married?

Woods: "It's not a sense of me and him not communicating; it's me making a choice that I don't want to go back into the relationship. I don't hate him, I don't put that in front of the children. I try to keep it where they make their decision on their father. I don't want George Bush to make a decision on their father. I don't need the department of social services making a decision on their father."

Sabon: "My kids cry for their dad. He called me the other day, and I said, 'You need to talk to me. You need to take responsibility. I'm doing this all on my own. You need to start helping. You missed their birthdays, you missed their Christmas.' The kids, they miss him."

Hutchings: "My kids have really good visitation with their dad. They see him every other weekend and actually seem pretty well-adjusted."

Welch: "Just a couple months ago, I asked (my son's) father not to pick him up or drop him off until he could be more consistent about it, because he was completely irregular. He would show up on days he wasn't supposed to and then not show up on days he was, or call and cancel 10 minutes before he was supposed to pick him up. I was having to involve other people in my life like standbys and screwing up their schedules and screwing up my own schedule, so then when I asked him not to pick him up anymore, he hasn't seen him since. You can't force them to be consistent or reliable, not even by marrying them."

Times: Do you have time to look for interesting men to meet?

Woods: "Oh, no. Our time is all assigned by the lovely government. I come here from 9 to 2:30 (as an intern with the Welfare Rights Organizing Coalition), I go to community jobs, and I just got enrolled in computer training, along with job search and night school. And I am mandated to get employment. I have one more year to be on (welfare) before time limits kick in. There's no time left for a relationship."

Welch: "My day lasts from 6 in the morning 'til 4 in the morning. He goes to day care, then I go to school for 4-1/2 hours and work for 4-1/2 hours, that's 4:30, quarter to 5, I go straight to pick him up from day care, get home, do dinner, eat, clean up from dinner and give him a bath and get him ready for tomorrow, then try to get him to go to sleep. And it's 11 or midnight, and then I've got to do my homework for the next day."

Woods: "It's very stressful. I have the kids with me to make sure they're doing homework and if they don't have any work, I have to be inventive to make sure their academic skills will stay up to par where they can be successful in life and they won't have to go through this lovely cycle I'm going through — it's a full plate already."

Times: Would you want to be married if the opportunity came along?

Welch: "Given the type of men that we're talking about — there is this recurrent theme of 'we don't want to count on them.' "

Woods: "I wouldn't see any reason for marriage right now. I need to have (financial) security first, for my personal identity as well as to ensure that my children know that they can be independent and have a good living standard on their own without having a partner."

Hutchings: "I don't know if I'd want to get married again because of how expensive it is to get a divorce. I would have had a savings account if I hadn't had to spend so much money on getting a divorce."

Times: Wouldn't it be better to have two incomes instead of one?

Woods: "And then if the man loses his job, gets the pink slip? Then here we are back again in the same situation. George Bush wants to promote this lovely idea to have us get married. Well, if he wants to give me some of his money to help support my family, I'd be glad to look into that (laughing). I am an African-American female. My partner would be an African-American male. There's a very low possibility for that to happen because of practices that happened previously of welfare parents not being able to have men in their homes and African-American males who are in prison due to injustice or certain crimes or the three-strikes law and drugs — all that has an issue in marriage."

Times: Is there a disincentive if you're on welfare to get married because your income doubles and you could lose your eligibility for child-care subsidies and other assistance?

Sabon: "I think one example of that is my girls' dad. He's never kept a steady job. (The state) calculates your income and his income — mine was full-time receptionist, his was laborer, and it hurts you. I have two children, 6 and 8. (Child care) is $300 a month for each kid; I have a $185 co-pay as a single person. With two incomes, we wouldn't qualify for the state to pay for our child care. If it didn't work out — if he walked out or his job wasn't consistent — then I still have to pay that."

Times: If it's not marriage, what other things do you need? In what ways could the government be helpful?

Welch: "Sometimes, we have $20 and we need to pay the light bill and get groceries, and they're talking about using money for this huge theoretical goal — we don't even know if it would work."

Times: You're saying help me with my light bill?

Welch: "Yeah. And child care and education and things like that."

Hutchings: "Create jobs that can support families."

Sabon: "Keep funding the programs — drug and alcohol (treatment), anger management, education. Help me get more skills for myself so I can hopefully retire at a job where I feel comfortable and don't worry about getting laid off. It's all on me. If I lose my job, I'm back on welfare again."

Woods: "Stop the clock ticking. For people who are abiding by DSHS laws, stop putting pressure on us to get off (welfare). We want off, we've probably been off — I know I have — and had to go back on. It's not like we sit on our butts and get high or drink or watch soap operas or whatever stereotypes they have put upon us, or lay on our backs and have children continuously. Seems to me they put the fault on us, and I think that's very wrong when we are trying as women to be independent, trying to better and empower our children — to let them see we want to educate ourselves and take care of ourselves as well as our children."